I promise, I don’t try to make a habit of trying to get you to pay for things which are free. Honestly, I don’t. I love Live Music in Second Life, and moreso, I’d love for it to be free for everyone to enjoy.
But there’s a couple of simple facts here:
- Live musicians can charge near real life rates.
- Residents don’t tip the venue very much.
Put those together, and you end up with a lot of live musicians with nowhere to play. Which kinda defeats the point.
Social venues across the grid have been shutting down, and there’s simply not many places in Second Life which are purely about the entertainment. Most venues need a mall or money-making venture in place to support it. I’ve always paid for the Crown and Pearl from my own pocket as I believe the grid needs a place which offers a place free of commercialism and seediness that covers the metaverse.
But after 2 years, those pennies are definitely adding up. And venue tips simply don’t generate enough income to keep a place going – as a venue owner, I can see why live musicians aren’t being invited to play at as many venues as they used to be.
Some venues have tried a entrance fee to gain access to events. But suggesting to live music fans that they have to pay to listen to their favourite musicians is kinda like suggesting.. oh I don’t know.. it’s like suggesting to the fashion community that they should pay for freebies. It gets a lot of people worked up in a short space of time, and then all hell breaks loose. It’s pretty fun.
It seems it’s reached the point where acclaimed SL live musician Mankind Tracer has decided to try a different angle. I love MK – the man’s a singing sensation to my ears, and he’s a great guy to the boot, so I have a lot of time for him, and took the moment to read through his notecard.
By now, I know a alot of you have had the chance to review my proposal regarding my new business model for the artist/venue relationship. There have been many replies in the forums, in notecards and IM’s and the vast majority have been kind, generous and many insightful, offering suggestions and ideas which I might not have thought of. The reason for putting the “Open Letter” out there was to gain feedback and BOY did I get some! As I said, I don’t have all the angles and answers and relying on you for your ideas was a good move!I think it’s really wonderful how people have taken notice of what needs to be changed. We have a flawed system now and it has become a personal goal to do something to help. Again, I’ll reiterate what my open letter said: I may fall flat on my face doing this and I may lose fans or even friends… but I am willing to take a risk. I am of the philosophy that one step back for 10 steps forward is a pretty good investment. I am more concerned with the vanishing venues and how we as a community can help for the long term, so if I lose a few fans in the process, it’s a prioce I will have to pay I’m afraid. I am in fact taking a risk here but it needs to be done.To that end, I want to invite you the residents – especially artists and venue owners – to my place for a concert, Mankind’s Sweet Spot, this Thursday at 2pm. I will be running a test of my new “Cover Charge System” (CCS) to ensure it is mechanically sound and to introduce what I believe to be a strong working model. Yes… there will be a cover charge for this show, otherwise how can I test it? And yes there will be security in place. The cover will be L$1 – one Linden.There are a few who have stated their case against the idea of a cover charge, and you are of course free to feel as you do and express your viewpoint. I only ask that you please respect me and those who support the idea by simply not attending the shows. I do respect your opinions and I ask that you respect those of the supporters.Conversely, if you are one of the many who have shown solidarity and agree it’s time for a change, then I hope you will come by. There’s obviously limited space so if you plan on being there, arrive early.As I said in my previous letter, I AM going through with this. I have heard many opinions but I’ve heard none strong enough against my plan to eliminate it completely. Therefore, again I urge artists and venue owners to attend. If you like what you see, I’ll ask that you send me any comments or booking request in notecard not IM. If all goes smoothly, I will begin to implement this plan immediately. As promised I will cut my fee to the venues and offer 20% of the cover back to them with the hopes that it will give incentive to more venues to take an active role in artist promotion and bettering their venues if needed. If venues don’t have to pay for an artist, they can use that money in other productive ways: overhead costs, advertising, promotion, redesign, etc.In short, this is how it works. You come to the venue, pay your cover to the very obvious sign. If not, you will not immediately be booted. The CCS will continually inform you, the venue’s designated security guards and myself that you have not yet paid the cover. After three automated warnings, security will contact you privately in IM. If after 5 warnings you have still not paid, you will then be asked to pay immediately or be shown the exit… simple and clean with no exceptions. This is going to work like a RL club. When you enter, you pay, if not you don’t get in. The CCS is quite a bit more easy going than that, but no less firm. I’m going a bit on the honor system here as people in SL have shown be to be fair and ethical. So I hope you will be as fair as I am trying to be.We really need to change with the times. I personally needed to really change my thinking to go along with the changing economic times. But again as in my previous letter I stated, “that was then and this is now”. The world has changed. SL has changed. WE need to change.I truly appreciate your support and hope to see you on Thursday for the CSS test.Thank you,MBy now, I know a alot of you have had the chance to review my proposal regarding my new business model for the artist/venue relationship. There have been many replies in the forums, in notecards and IM’s and the vast majority have been kind, generous and many insightful, offering suggestions and ideas which I might not have thought of. The reason for putting the “Open Letter” out there was to gain feedback and BOY did I get some! As I said, I don’t have all the angles and answers and relying on you for your ideas was a good move!
I think it’s really wonderful how people have taken notice of what needs to be changed. We have a flawed system now and it has become a personal goal to do something to help. Again, I’ll reiterate what my open letter said: I may fall flat on my face doing this and I may lose fans or even friends… but I am willing to take a risk. I am of the philosophy that one step back for 10 steps forward is a pretty good investment. I am more concerned with the vanishing venues and how we as a community can help for the long term, so if I lose a few fans in the process, it’s a prioce I will have to pay I’m afraid. I am in fact taking a risk here but it needs to be done.
To that end, I want to invite you the residents – especially artists and venue owners – to my place for a concert, Mankind’s Sweet Spot, this Thursday at 2pm. I will be running a test of my new “Cover Charge System” (CCS) to ensure it is mechanically sound and to introduce what I believe to be a strong working model. Yes… there will be a cover charge for this show, otherwise how can I test it? And yes there will be security in place. The cover will be L$1 – one Linden.
There are a few who have stated their case against the idea of a cover charge, and you are of course free to feel as you do and express your viewpoint. I only ask that you please respect me and those who support the idea by simply not attending the shows. I do respect your opinions and I ask that you respect those of the supporters.
Conversely, if you are one of the many who have shown solidarity and agree it’s time for a change, then I hope you will come by. There’s obviously limited space so if you plan on being there, arrive early.
As I said in my previous letter, I AM going through with this. I have heard many opinions but I’ve heard none strong enough against my plan to eliminate it completely. Therefore, again I urge artists and venue owners to attend. If you like what you see, I’ll ask that you send me any comments or booking request in notecard not IM. If all goes smoothly, I will begin to implement this plan immediately. As promised I will cut my fee to the venues and offer 20% of the cover back to them with the hopes that it will give incentive to more venues to take an active role in artist promotion and bettering their venues if needed. If venues don’t have to pay for an artist, they can use that money in other productive ways: overhead costs, advertising, promotion, redesign, etc.
In short, this is how it works. You come to the venue, pay your cover to the very obvious sign. If not, you will not immediately be booted. The CCS will continually inform you, the venue’s designated security guards and myself that you have not yet paid the cover. After three automated warnings, security will contact you privately in IM. If after 5 warnings you have still not paid, you will then be asked to pay immediately or be shown the exit… simple and clean with no exceptions. This is going to work like a RL club. When you enter, you pay, if not you don’t get in. The CCS is quite a bit more easy going than that, but no less firm. I’m going a bit on the honor system here as people in SL have shown be to be fair and ethical. So I hope you will be as fair as I am trying to be.
We really need to change with the times. I personally needed to really change my thinking to go along with the changing economic times. But again as in my previous letter I stated, “that was then and this is now”. The world has changed. SL has changed. WE need to change.
I truly appreciate your support and hope to see you on Thursday for the CSS test.
Thank you,
M
I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt on the number of times he mentioned “change” before I start thinking President Obama is actually an SL musician.
But it’s interesting to see a major live musician taking this route, as opposed to the venue themselves. Some things to bear in mind with these things, is that not everyone will be prepared to pay to listen in – and that’s a fair point, which is why you need to set a reasonable charge.
There’s no point in a new live musician coming along and negotiating a 1000L$ cover charge, when they have no following – it’d benefit nobody. For years, we’ve been saying it’s time for the venues and the live musicians to work together, instead of against each other, and it’s nice to see a little progress towards that.
And when someone tips, both the venue and the musician get to benefit. And that’s a win-win, because both get to continue operating and making money. Which is all wonderful for the SL economy!
Of course, there’s the obvious point that Crap Mariner bought up on his blog - you can easily thwart the need to have to “pay to stay” by activating admin options and copying the URL. Unless you perform the gig on voice, that is – but then you might need to mute everyone else’s voice, and that can be effort.
And so the buck here has fallen (as it usually does) with Linden Lab, who’s CEO M Linden/Mark Kingdon recently claimed Live Music to be Second Life’s Killer App. Hate to say it, but your Killer App is being.. ummm.. killed, at the moment.
May I suggest you do something about that?
Bailey Longcloth on September 1, 2009
As your partner at the Crown, and having given quite a few of my own pennies to the endeavor I’ll be curious to see how well received this is.
I know I miss having live music at the Crown and C2P. I’m curious though what the public would consider a reasonable cover for a live show? As you say, it won’t make a lot of sense to charge to much and have no one show up.
Mistletoe on September 2, 2009
Live musicians charge near real life rates.
I WISH. What we charge might get us a burger and a beer to split between us.
Ruby on September 2, 2009
“Of course, there’s the obvious point that Crap Mariner bought up on his blog – you can easily thwart the need to have to “pay to stay” by activating admin options and copying the URL”
How charming, the audio equivalent to content theft. Good to see people posting the “How To Guide” to screwing your favorite musician.
Prad Prathivi on September 2, 2009
Oh c’mon.. if it was an extra download or third party software, then I wouldn’t mention it. If it’s something that’s built into the damn viewer that pretty much everyone knows about anyways, then yes – I will mention it. Because Lindens read this blog, and they might even do something about it.
If you don’t talk about a problem, it doesn’t get fixed.
chestnut on September 2, 2009
Some musicians encourage people to listen remotely by handing out the stream info. Its pretty common.
Crap is right listening remotely is a problem under Mankind’s proposal but I am not sure it is a deal breaker. There are things Linden could do to help make this proposal or a variant of it work for everyone.
Great post Prad.
Troy McLuhan on September 2, 2009
SL already has a system built-in where the parcel owner can set the parcel so people have to buy a pass (pay a cover charge) to gain access to the parcel. The money goes to the parcel owner, which would normally be the venue owner. The parcel owner can split the proceeds with the musician and whoever else. Using that system also avoids the problem Crap Mariner brought up: if you can’t get on the parcel, you can’t copy the parcel music URL.
Ann Otoole on September 2, 2009
Most people running a venue are ignorant of the information at http://bit.ly/yZE7I but if they did odds are good they would all charge a fee for access one way or another. Even clubs using a DJ are required to pay a license fee. I’m sure nobody is afraid or even cares.
As for the “music is information that wants to be free” (pirate) society of Second Life… the only way to change the people that think they are entitled to everything free because they have an ipod is to change the general demographic of SL to only people with credit cards that pay a monthly fee for access. I don’t think this will happen as long as Linden Lab owns Second Life but is highly likely when SL is sold as well as an end to open source.
As for the admin option to view the media url? That makes it easier than using cports to see what the url is. But with cports (or similar utility) you can get the information anyway so there is no way to stop that sort of thing when using shoutcast. The costs associated with a subscriber line strategy would raise feasibility questions.
The same rule of content applies. All you can do is hope you have enough honest customers to make it worthwhile. When there are no longer enough honest people around the content will stop flowing.
He who controls the content controls the universe!
Prad Prathivi on September 2, 2009
@Troy – you can still select the protected land by right clicking it and bringing up the “About Land” window. I thought about that method too, but on testing it out, it didn’t work.
Kitty 'Otoole on September 2, 2009
I appreciate that it’s the principle that is being debated here, but let’s be realistic, he’s asking for a ONE LINDEN charge to each attendee, which in the grand scheme of things isn’t much. A one linden charge may well exclude a minority from attending an event, eg new players who would like to see what live music is like in-world, but not the more well- established fans.
People who tip venues would probably tip more than a Linden, I know that I do, but tips aren’t consistent, so I don’t see what alternatives there are? I think that charging a fee has to be considered as valid, and I personally don’t see anything wrong with it at all. In fact, I think that charging a fee may make a gig more appealing to some. For example, an uber-exclusive limited attendence, ticketed event might be really attractive to certain individuals, especially if by paying the ticket fee you are given a link to exclusive downloads of the event or in-world merchandise. If I’m desperate to see someone play a venue in real life then I’ll pay to see them, I think the same model can and should be applied, but to a lesser extent, in-world.
=^..^=
Prad Prathivi on September 2, 2009
One Linden was a test fee just to see if the system worked and find any glitches. The suggested amount for actual implementation was closer to L$500.
Kitty 'Otoole on September 2, 2009
L$500? That would fit in with my exclusivity statement, but I don’t think that amount is realistic for an ‘ordinary’ gig.
Personally if it was someone I really wanted to see and had enjoyed seeing before I’d be happy to pay L$100-L$150…but I think asking for L$500 will be pushing it..at least to begin with.
=^..^=
Crap Mariner on September 2, 2009
It’s an interesting experiment. Mankind’s tried various things here and there, so I’m looking forward to seeing what data he generates from this.
As for M’s “killer ap” statement, I just keep laughing at him. Sending Colossus to the SLCC 2009 panel on the future when he had nothing to bring to the table… HAHAHAHAHA what a joke.
-ls/cm
Paisley Beebe on September 2, 2009
Circe Broom and I put on a concert about a year and a half ago when times were good! we made a nice profit, we charged people 1K to get in and really went all out. It was a masquerade ball, people thought we were mad, the tickets sold out in 2 days. We sold 65 tickets and got sponsorship money on top. However that was a special event with SLebrities and quite exclusive by its nature. It won’t be that easy on a large scale with this model, but I hope it takes on.
I object to musicans being treated in SL and in RL who want to be paid for their service, as buskers, or as free entertainment. Free for who? for the listener only. It costs musicians to play, it costs venues to support them wheather they pay a fee or not to the musician.
Its an entitelment mentality, people want to download free music and free videos in RL also, and if they can they will get music free in SL. However someone allways pays, for the freeloaders, Some good souls allways tip both the musicians and the venue but its tiny percentage by comparison.
I was at a concert in SL this week where the musician is considered one of the best musicians in SL. It was a special event really, there were 55 people in the audience and he made 3K for the hour,. if everyone had tipped the guy min even between 50L and 200L he would have done better than that! but see… thats the problem people hold out, they don’t all tip even if they have money, they sit on their hands why? you have to ask them…I just refuse to beleive that even the most destitute of SLfs won’t even tip 50L…that they dont have it. I had a guy who allways tipped me 5L thats all he could afford and Im allways totally gratefull to him he made an effort! So its the misers in the crowd who force other audience members to tip more, you can see the total tips in hover text over the jar! you can see most times how much the musician gets…and many people including myself just feel bad so we tip the musicians much more than the average, we know how it feels to be taken advantage of!
Musicians don’t make much money from CD sales, not enough to pay even regular tier not in SL, My theory is that mostly people in SL want to buy clothes houses and land, not CD’s, perhaps SL musicians are not valued? as much as hair skin or clothing, because they are cheap? “You get what you pay for” type mentality.
You would pay to get a CD of an artist you are less likely to see in RL at a concert, but if you can see an artist even virtually several times a week, its less attractive to buy a CD. Easy accessabilty makes their CD’s less valuable. You have to Die to sell all your CD’s how often have we seen that happen!
Also anyone who thinks that “most” musicians get a fee from clubs and that tips are gravy is wrong! and its probably our fault that, that sort of misinformation is out there, musicians won’t talk about how much they earn, hardly ever, if its tiny then thats embarrassing, if it a large sum then they dont want to upset others who arn’t making that much. But I’ll tell you, most venues are tips only…and if you do get a fee its an average of 3-5K per hour and I’ve found lately no one wanting to pay that even weekly, its usually a one off for a party…Times are tough all round!
So do not assume the artist is getting paid by the venue chances are 9 times out of 10 he/she aint. and if he/she goes home with less than 3K for an hours work, and he is worth more…by reason of experience and talent. How do you think he feels, if he needs to get paid, and wants to be paid and see’s his skill and talent as worth something. He will feel ripped off. sorely ripped off. And thats why folks! great musicians do not stay long in SL and they cut down on gigs. Because they don’t sell many CD’s they can’t afford even tier sometimes on their payment, and they feel underappreciated. eventually….and with not enough new customers knowing about live music in SL (due to L.L not promoting it) eventually they have bored their true fans silly with 12 gigs a week. Its not sustainable.
I played for a club once early last year, for a full hour and sang my heart out for 55 people, mostly Europeans and Aussies and came home with 500L I felt underappreciated and ripped off I felt almost taken advantage of. the venue made nothing, no one tipped the venue. And there was nothing wrong with the place it was a nice place and we got regualar crowds and this was before bots at gigs
I played every single week with over 50 people in the place, for 5 nights before we gave up because of the freeloaders…why didn’t they tip? if they hated it would they have stayed? They were prompted time from time to tip…..but nope…because its not European and Asian or Aussie to tip, its not in our culture, I do it cause I know! and they probably thought like most of you that we were getting paid by the venue, we wern’t!
Problem is if you announce upfront at every venue that you are not getting paid that its tips only, does that make a difference? I’ve never done it, it seems desperate, unless the venue was known openly as a tips only venue like an open mic…which Ive never really done.
Also a note to the freeloaders, You think your the only one not tipping dont you …but what you don’t realise is that only about 10% of the audience is tipping…thats a pretty average estimate on my experience …over 2 years. some of those 10% pay for the entire room to benifit from being there. Please next time you see someone tip 1K when you have no intention on tipping even with Lindens in your account, go up and thank that tipper for paying your way! perhaps you can return the favour…Maybe you think they have more money than you…probably not? they just beleive in rewarding artistic merit and you don’t.
Its a cultural attitude born throuout RL and SL. The “no one gets hurt if I download this mp3 for free”., and you think your the only one….
I have collegues of mine who are considered the best jazz musicians in Australia, the very best, Im fortunate to know them. Guess how they live?…no they didn’t burn up their money on drugs and girls, they just never got the money, they were ripped off by bad managers tour promoters and venue owners. And none of them had the pull collectively to ask for a minimum wage. Australia does not look after their talent! and many other countries are the same.
So when you rip off a musician by allowing someone else to pay your tip for you, or you download an mp3 for free, consider this. Most musicians particularly full-time ones are earning under the poverty line every single year. Thats under 12 thousand dollars a year. Yep folks you are ripping off the underprivilaged.
There are a lot of musicians who use SL as a hobby, and lots who are just trying out their stuff here in SL. And they are happy to play for kicks and a giggle, but do you want SL to be only catering for them? do you want SL to stagnate? to not grow? to not have bands? are you sick of only just hearing one muso and his guitar? how about some diversity.
Sure, there is not enough demand, and L.L will not promote Live music in fact they are actively hiding it in the new Website. They do not want to deal with the politics around live music and copyright. But full bands will not come in regualarly if they have to split the measilly 3K tip that they get from a room full of people! Even Duos who both use SL find that tough. Im glad Freddy my RL hubby and accompanist in SL donates his fee to me!
I hope that MKT’s model works, for musicians who want to and need to get paid. I think people should have 3 mins to weigh up if they like the muso and go, or stay and pay. It only takes me a max of that long to size up a muso.
Personally Id rather have 25 people listening to me play who really really want to be there, and are hanging on every note, than 70 free loaders who are there just to hang out and pick up girls or guys.
I think there will be a lot of resistance to this, because some people just see musicians as one step above an organ grinder or a street begger. We don’t have “real” jobs, and anyway shouldn’t we just be gratefull any bugger wants to listen to us at all!!! “Gosh if I got all that attention! Id do it for free!!) thanks for that folks. I’ll take that to my plumber next time he tries charging me 200 bucks an hour..
Sorry…for the rant… its an old bug bear of mine…it gets me going. And it aint just me, I interview lots and lots of musicians and have a great network of Musician freinds in SL. I think I pretty well know the mindset of many different types of musicians. in both SL and RL.
Good luck MKT
I hope you can even things up for everyone Venue Musicians and audience members. Give us our respect back a little.
Paisley
Mistletoe on September 6, 2009
YOU GET IT. And as a musician, just let me say, THANK YOU.
As to your estimate, in the case of my duo, you’re pretty correct. Our hourly rate falls within that range.
You said the very same thing I said in my own blog earlier today: the real problem is that live music is so de-valued that eventually more and more musicians decide it’s not worth the hassle and hang it up. My partner and I are at that very crossroads right now.
Lizzie Lexington on September 3, 2009
I have BIG opinions on this. I have ran two SL electronic clubs and have many friends who run clubs as well. The successful venue owners that I know do not treat their club as a source of income – its a passionate hobby. They have come to the realization that in SL the venue owner has to be willing to pay the lionshare of the expense, be there to host or have a strong enough relationship with the DJ/musicians to allow them to run the show.
On the other hand the musician/DJ has to be willing to view SL in the same manner. This is not RL and they cannot expect the same level of pay or promotion. For them it should also be a hobby. I have had the privilege to assist in the hosting of RL electronic artist Luke Slater and have been regular attendee to events hosted by or featuring Cari Lekebusch. And if you familiar with this genre and in particular live in Europe, these will be names you are probably familiar with. Neither of these gentleman expected pay or anything in return expect to entertain the crowd.
Cover Charges in SL – Pfft its BS.
Lizzie Lexington on September 3, 2009
god i have the worst typonese – “expect to entertain the crowd” I meant except not expect.
Paisley Beebe on September 3, 2009
Lizzie, why should it be just a hobby? I see no justification for that statement. Second Life is a business opportunity for many people, who now have a chance to make something of themselves that perhaps they cannot through disability or location and circumstance. Are you saying also that they must not have any aspirations to make an income on SL? What makes Venue owners DJ’s and Musicians less worthy in your eyes of this same opportunity? Every one has the right to an opinion of course, and I respect you have yours, but again, it smacks of Musicians, Venues, and DJ’s inequality to me.
No one can decree that SL is only for hobbyists, anymore than you can say that about RL. Clearly there are many many people in SL who are now living off their earnings or supplementing a RL income and I applaud that, they now have opportunities afforded to them that in RL might be denied by personal appearance, age, race disability and location. Musicians suffer all of those too Lizzie just cause we look like we are having a good time, doesn’t mean we don’t need money.
Katydid Something on September 4, 2009
Kudos for this discussion! This issue was brought up as part of the Music Track at SLCC 09 and it is a REAL issue in SL. Venues are closing because they can no longer afford to support Live music programs out of their own pocket. I, for one, would love to expand the Live Music at Molaskey’s Pub, but, as I pay my musician, tier, stream etc. I am spending more than $500 US per month to keep my venue open already. I do NOT have another financial venture to support our venue so I have to rely on the support of my audience to stay open — and it’s not working!!! I applaud the explorations of Mankind Tracer, Votslav Hax and others to find a reasonable solution so that musicians can receive a reasonable fee and venue owners can cover their costs and be able to remain viable so all can enjoy! Otherwise we will loose more and more venues.
MetaNews Daily – 106 – 3rd September 2009 / Rezzed.TV on September 4, 2009
[...] Live Music: Time for Cover Charges? [...]
I want to spin my little watch I want to spin my little watch right before your eyes « Second Life Shrink on September 4, 2009
[...] this came to mind today when I read about the travails of the Second Life music scene. Apparently musicians and venue owners are struggling to get audiences to pay anything at all for [...]
Tributetim Kwak on September 4, 2009
i am passionate about sl music, and I am a venue owner.
But, you must understand, to do anything beyond the occasional party becomes enormously expensive. I want to create an amazing, high quality, multi genre set of venues where people can see the best of sl music. To me, that means probably 15 to 25 shows each week, to start and perhaps growing to 35 shows… 5 each day. To do that, just to start doing that, requires an investment of US$2,000 each month.
That’s one hell of a hobby.
I don’t expect to make money on this. It IS a passion. But, come on, don’t you think those that are entertained should at least chip in?
come see what we are trying to do about this at http://rastalivemusicco-op.blogspot.com/
Paul Cohen/Komuso Tokugawa on September 4, 2009
I have produced multiple successful ticketed events in SL as special events and based on my experience this is one model that does work with the current technology and quality of service issues, marketed to a dedicated fan base of ture fans who understand and support musicians they like.
With regards to a standard door charge with current technology, market/audience, quality of performance, and quality of service people are being premature.
There will come a time when this may be viable, but I strongly suspect that time is not now, for reasons outlined above.
For your education I’d like to repost my comment from the rastalivemusic blog on what is actually involved for a professional indie performer using this emerging medium.
The following links also illustrate some of my thoughts on where we are with this technology:
Real music for a virtual world http://www.japaninc.com/node/4134
Tokyo barcamp Future of Music video talk http://vimeo.com/4686606
re: http://rastalivemusicco-op.blogspot.com/2009/08/economics-of-live-music-performances.html#comments
“An artist needs to have software to broadcast their music over the internet, … I don’t know the cost of all that, but I’m sure one of our musicians will be happy to spell it out. My impression is that the best of sl musicians basically have a recording studio to work from.”
It is slightly more involved than that Tim.
For the indie musician approaching virtual live performance as a profession, the costs to setup and maintain a home based studio are NOT insignificant if you are after quality output. Technology to gain a so-called pro sound quality is now available at very good price points, but depending on each artists skill sets and performance needs when you put all the components together they can add up quite quickly.
Some of the costs on the Artists side, way above and beyond what any other content creator/service provider has in SL are:
Digital Audio Workstation (Live, Reaper, Cubase etc)
Audio Interfaces
Virtual Software Instruments
Virtual Software Effects
Audio/midi Sample libraries
Backing tracks for those so inclined
Microphones (Quality does count)
Physical instruments & Maintenance
Consumables (Strings, batteries, picks etc)
Harware preamps/mixers
Midi interfaces
Control interfaces
Streaming software (opensource/commercial)
Online collaboration software
Instrument and Mic cables
[I can also guarantee you professionals actually pay for the software tools they use on a regular basis;-)]
Add to this a minimum of 2 high end computers. One to run real time audio, one to run the virtual world client.
Fast Hard drives for recording, backups.
Multiple monitors for workflow.
Real time audio also taxes computers to their max performance limits, so you can add in maintenance and repair above and beyond normal home usage. Personally I’ve burnt machines out multiple times.
Lets not forget RL health care either, another cost usually brushed aside. Serious professional musicians are akin to other peak physical performance disciplines like sports and the costs to keep our real bodies in musical playing condition are not insignificant, especially in today’s rabid healthcare(less) system. Chiro, acupuncture, massage, gym, medicines, etc etc.
There’s more, but I think you get the idea.
I hope this gives you some small insight into what it actually takes to perform in SL from the professional indie musicians perspective.
Paul Cohen/Komuso Tokugawa on September 4, 2009
damn, true fans not ture fans!
Paul Cohen/Komuso Tokugawa on September 4, 2009
And by “way above and beyond what any other content creator/service provider has in SL” I mean that pro virtual musicians will also generally have their own virtual studio or sim.
So as a baseline (ie: pre the home studio costs as per post above) they could potentially have the same entry and operational costs of any virtual business in terms of virtual land, facilities, rent/tier, staff etc.
Jura Shepherd on September 4, 2009
I’m totally into the idea of introducing fees for a lot of reasons and have been for a long time but I’m really not getting my head around the venue angle. Particularly, I don’t understand how it’s the musicians responsibility to make venues affordable.
Venues are an expense. Everyone knows that. RL venues are competitive enough but when you compound that with the low threshold of starting any business in SL, and the fact that people think it’d be a real cool thing to do, you end up with way more venues than are actually needed. Yes, some are fantastic, beloved by people, and the owners work very had on them. I totally understand that but on a fundamental level, I also know that I could build a place, hire a stream, and have it booked by tomorrow night. That’s why people don’t value them like the owners think they should.
Jeesh I sound like a witch but seriously, if I had a venue that I couldn’t afford I would either: find a way to make it more valuable to guest, join forces with 3 or 4 other struggling venue owners to make 1 venue that we share expense/work on, or shut down. It’s that simple. It’d be MY problem and I’d be mortified to read people talking about MY place like it’s a charity case. I don’t get it.
Mankind Tracer on September 4, 2009
I wanted to take a second to say thanks to all of you who support my efforts and to those who don’t yet, well I hope I can earn your respect and trust. I appreciate all opinions and learn from both pros and cons.
Thank you for your efforts and of course your valueable time.
M
Johnny on September 4, 2009
Does the real problem not lie with the Second Life platform itself, specifically its lack of scalability? The low number of avatars that can be on a sim at any one time means that even a popular act will be limited to playing the virtual equivalent of weddings and bar mitzvahs. Even if people will pay US$10 to see you, you won’t be able to generate enough cash to make a living, especially with the expenses outlined above.
I can see that playing in SL could be a useful adjunct to a real life music career, but on its own it’s never going to be more than a hobby.
Tary Allen on September 4, 2009
its about time, I really think all the SL/live Music needs to be rethinked. Maybe there was a time when people played for tips, and maybe some new artists in the grid still do, but nowadays all artists charge the venue owner for the show.
And, lets face it, or the venue owner is there for the fun and knows he has to support the venue for himself or he will have to close it, he has the tier to pay, plus the artists, and some times some staff too.
The tips ususally go for the singer, not the venue, not that I think thats bad, its just a fact.
So, yes, I think cover charges are needed, and maybe some open mics nights to support new artists. I prefer to pay to listen to someone I like, that the constant “tip the venue” “tip the artist” (at the third request for tips I’m usually out of there).
Everyone will succeed? nope, only the good ones and the good venues.
It will take time to change mentality about SL music scene? Oh yes, but it will be better!
Cover Charges of 500L? I think thats too much, at least at the beggining (don’t make me decide between hair and live music, hair will always win, that price covers 2 hairstyles in most stores
As for freeloaders in live music gigs (and since I almost always tip I’m at ease to say this), if the artist doesn’t like to have non-tippers and think of them as freeloaders best to state so at the beggining, tipping is still optional as far as I know and some artists don’t mind having non-tippers in their audience. The all tipping culture is one of the reasons I really prefer to pay a ticket for a show,
Mankind Tracer on September 6, 2009
Prad,
Can you PLEASE change the the colors of this website? The white text on black background is bugging my eyes outta me HEAD!!!!!!
Love ya man!
M
Twitted by glenp on September 6, 2009
[...] This post was Twitted by glenp [...]
Salome Strangelove on September 6, 2009
One day someone will have to explain to me why people feel they deserve a music venue they can’t support. If you can’t afford a music venue, or come up with a practical way to support one, then you shouldn’t have one. It’s really very simple.
This model has been floated over and over. It doesn’t work. My hat is off to anyone who wants to give it a shot, but the reasoning behind thinking that you’re going to force people to pay for your own vanity projects is pretty close to the top of the “not getting it” list.
Very Keynes on September 7, 2009
What seams to be getting overlooked in all of these discussions is how we got to be in this situation, and the history of SL live music.
It started when a few musicians realised the potential of exposing their talent to a larger global audience, like MySpace in many respects, but in a way that generated interactive feedback. Venues on the other hand were forming clubs, as part of the malls, to attract traffic. Back then it generated an subsidy from LL and was the best way to get noticed in search etc. It was a win win situation in that the artists had no need to pay tier fees, had a ready made audience and venues, whilst the Venue in turn attracted more traffic, and hence more mall rentals or product sales to cover tier costs.
Profits were actually good enough for the venues to pay a token fee for the artists. More artists were attracted to the concept of gaining global exposure and, at the same time, earn a little SL spending money. Before long a sliding fee scale had entered the picture, with the more established artists able to ask higher fees.
Then Along came the casino Boom.
Venues with casinos were rolling in cash and happily paid more and more. We also had LL actively encouraging Corporate Sponsorship and the likes of IBM, Coke, and Playboy were happy to pay RL rates for Live artists. Before long some artists could actually make a living in SL, and several still do.
But the Bubble burst, casinos were banned only a few malls or product vendors could afford to keep the music going. Then along came SLX and its clones. More and more SL shopping was happening on web sites, less people were renting Mall space, SL changed the search listing criteria and made Traffic less important and the Traffic subsidy system was, of course, long gone. Finally SL bought out SLX, advertised it on the Secondlife.com pages, the search listings and within the client, suddenly everyone was shopping in SLX and not going to malls. Any Club dependent on Mall income began to fold and many who survive have joined the ranks of the few clubs that existed purely to promote live music as a hobby, not as an income source.
We are now in a situation that the sources of Income have dried up, the artists are still expecting to be paid (in some cases more than a living wage for many of the countries represented in SL) and the general public are still under the impression that artists play for free and that if you own a venue you are rolling in cash. Add to that the fact that many artists now own there own venues (and argue that they too have tier to pay, but that is their choice) they have created a conflict of interest. They now compete with the very venues that have supported them and paid them. Whilst if they perform at their own venues they do not have to pay artist fees, get to keep both venue and artist tips, and often have guest artists perform, generally for tips only, on a kind of barter system of mutual support.
If there is a crisis in SL music, it was largely created by the artists. The solution to the problem is not inventing new sources of income, but revisiting the very reason that SL Live music exists. Is it a source of exposure and an avenue to sell CD’s? or is it an alternative Performance Platform to rival RL and as such generate a living?
Each Musician will have to answer that for themselves. But if they truly want to help the Venues, as they claim in these discussions, then they should reduce their fees, in line with the real state of the SL economy, Share the tips with the Venues, and Stop Competing with those who they claim to be helping.
Mankind Tracer on September 8, 2009
MUCH easier to read now Prad… thanks for the color/font adjustment.
Paul Cohen/Komuso Tokugawa on September 8, 2009
Very,
Your historical “analysis” is not accurate at all, sketchy at best.
I have been there from the beginning of the SL music scene as a live performer, using it as a action research experiment in personal branding and new business model experimentation for this emerging performance medium.
re: Casino’s and Malls. Thet were only a small part of the venue scene, and in fact were the worst places to perform at due to lag, spam, and bad design. The best thing to happen to live music was the death of the from the performance scene, and it was no great hit as a performer to see them go.
re:”BLAME THE ARTISTS->Is it a source of exposure and an avenue to sell CD’s? or is it an alternative Performance Platform to rival RL and as such generate a living?”
You seem to know little of the actual state of RL music and recording industry or how it works. Then again, most musicians don’t understand it either so you are in good company. Suffice to say that neither of these are viable forms of sustainable revenue in RL. -> http://getzorched.blogspot.com/2009/09/slaves-vs-freemen.html
You get closer to one of the core issues at the end: the Unrealistic Expectations placed on an emerging technology platform and the user base. However, it is inaccurate to apply it to one set of players only.
The Unrealistic Expectations are on the part of all players in this virtual music game: Artists, venues, promoters, etc.
I could tell you some stories.
One day I might.
Salome Says »Blog Archive » Music Venue Drama on September 9, 2009
[...] Every so often, old ideas get bandied about the SL live music community in the guise of new ideas. Cover charges is the one currently making the rounds. [...]
Anek Fuchs on September 23, 2009
Komuso has for a long time been a brilliant speaking voice in these matters, respect . . .
I am one of those musicians as well, a professional level player within this virtual realm we all love and share. I joined april 25th or so of last year, and in six months, made a decent amount of money for that six months, before thiings started to slow down.
I had meetings, discussed with venue owners, and artists alike, how best to move forward in this direction, many meetings, and a cover charge idea, was the main topic, so i began plans to implement it, and when i slurled it, and hit my groups with the info, nobody showed, it was a tragic smack or realization for me, and then MK did it just weeks later, and made a success of it.
I chose a bad day, lol as well as not having the amount of popularity MK has, and it is well deserved, he is a great musical force in SL.
I have been at the front line of this, as much as I could, even at the risk of my own SL career, and I will be as involved as I can be, to try and help both sides.
It seems every time this conversation happens, someone pipes in and says ” this has been done and it goes nowhere” . . . well, stop saying that, and participate, help find a positive result, because thats how things get done.
I have seen many issues in this virtual realm, from venue owners, and artists alike, and despite the fact that the mention of the word union, or unification, and the fear that seems to cloud up peoples minds when you use those words, it really is going to take some kind of collective to make all this work.
Allegra Genira on September 24, 2009
As a former venue manager, I agree that the current SL live music business model needs to be modified. I’m just not sure that ‘pay for play’ is the way to do it. Sometimes the answers to resolving challenges can be found in the questions that others raise. Reading the blogs and being recently involved in the development stages of a music co-op, I still have some unanswered questions.
How does paying to see an act improve the fan’s experience – or (WIFM –what’s in it for me?)? If I don’t want to pay a flat fee to enter the venue, can’t I just wait an hour or so and see my favorite artist play at a non- pay venue? Unless artists are planning on regulating their shows and carefully planning their pay-to-play venue appearances on days when they don’t have ‘free’ shows, I really can’t see the win for the artist.
Is the venue promising to ‘increase my listening enjoyment’? and if so, how? Less lag? Lag has become a given in SL – just like rain in Seattle. With most artists providing their own premium stream, the venue doesn’t need to be involved in this. Less ‘tip beggin’ by hosts/esses? Most seasoned fans don’t let that bother them.
Will the artist be able to attract new fans if the fans won’t pay the entrance fee to begin with? Thusly the necessity to continue to play venues that do not require the entrance fee. I’m sure that in crunching the numbers, there’s a ‘minimum ticket sale’ that has been set whereby the venue and the musician break even or come out ahead. How many artists are there in SL who can pull that kind of crowd?
Finally, new artists are entering SL every day. I can only assume that most of them come in order to expand their audience and expose their talent in an ever growing medium. There will always be a need for venues where they can play for tips only or a nominal fee as they draw larger and larger fan bases. We will still need venue owners who ‘do it just for the passion/hobby’ – let’s hope they don’t get dismayed.
I am all about musicians and venues finding a win-win. My husband is a full-time musician in RL. That said – we do music for a living; we just don’t make a living at it. You can’t pay your electric bill with the free beer you get paid for playing a club. And similarly, SL venue owners and musicians can’t pay for their tier and streams without the ‘Linden love extended by the fan’.
As a long-time lover and supporter of Live Music (both in world and out), I can’t imagine SL without live musicians. While I have no answers, I know enough about the SL music community to know that between the musicians, venue owners AND the fans, the solution is just around the corner.